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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Re-institute the draft? | |
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Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

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Posted on 11-19-06 10:22 PM Link | Quote
This guy's been going on about the draft for some time now and he keeps bringing it up in Congress. All of his attempts went down in flames, but still it makes one wonder, would required military service be good for the country?

According to Rangel (the Congressman trying to bring the draft back), instituting the draft would discourage people from pushing for wars.

Here's the recent article: The article


Congressman Rangel Will Seek to Reinstate Draft

WASHINGTON (Nov. 19) - Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 under a bill the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee says he will introduce next year.

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars.

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War who has unsuccessfully sponsored legislation on conscription in the past, has said the all-volunteer military disproportionately puts the burden of war on minorities and lower-income families.

Rangel said he will propose a measure early next year. While he said he is serious about the proposal, there is little evident support among the public or lawmakers for it.

In 2003, Rangel proposed a measure covering people age 18 to 26. It was defeated 402-2 the following year. This year, he offered a plan to mandate military service for men and women between age 18 and 42; it went nowhere in the Republican-led Congress.

Democrats will control the House and Senate come January because of their victories in the Nov. 7 election.

At a time when some lawmakers are urging the military to send more troops to Iraq, "I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel, who also proposed a draft in January 2003, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq. "I think to do so is hypocritical."

Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Standby Reserve, said he agreed that the U.S. does not have enough people in the military.

"I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option," said Graham, who is assigned as a reserve judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals.

Rangel, the next chairman of the House tax-writing committee, said he worried the military was being strained by its overseas commitments.

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," Rangel said.

He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service.

Graham said he believes the all-voluntary military "represents the country pretty well in terms of ethnic makeup, economic background."

Repeated polls have shown that about seven in 10 Americans oppose reinstatement of the draft and officials say they do not expect to restart conscription.

Outgoing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told Congress in June 2005 that "there isn't a chance in the world that the draft will be brought back."

Yet the prospect of the long global fight against terrorism and the continuing U.S. commitment to stabilizing Iraq have kept the idea in the public's mind.

The military drafted conscripts during the Civil War, both world wars and between 1948 and 1973. An agency independent of the Defense Department, the Selective Service System, keeps an updated registry of men age 18-25 - now about 16 million - from which to supply untrained draftees that would supplement the professional all-volunteer armed forces.

Rangel and Graham appeared on "Face the Nation" on CBS.


Considering the age range he's pushing for it's highly unlikely this will go through, but also taking into consideration how many new Congresspeople were elected to those seats recently, we still haven't seen how they're going to vote.

Either way, what's your stance on the draft?


(Last edited by Rogue on 11-20-06 03:29 AM)
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 4937 days
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Posted on 11-20-06 12:26 AM Link | Quote
I think there could be some benefit to forced military service. First of all the health/physical requirements would keep more people in shape and give them some sort of routine on fitness. It would teach people discipline and a good work ethic which I know not all people have.

I would however think that only a 1 year forced service would actually go through. Anything longer than that and you are taking that person out of their life for too long. And I think that the person should be allowed to choose the year. Maybe some want to do it the first year out of high school, or maybe right after college, or as a break between 2nd and 3rd year.

However, I'm sure there are enough people that are too opposed to war/violence that this would cause a huge uproar in the US. As long as forced military service did not equal forced real life combat then it might happen.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-20-06 04:04 AM Link | Quote
Well, I think the Peace Corps or Coast Guard are mroe peaceful alternatives. "Voluntary" makes it seem as though people want to join the army, though I don't think this is the case. I've met a lot more people who do it since they need the money then people that want to kill a fellow foreigners or "serve your country."
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

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Posted on 11-20-06 07:16 AM Link | Quote
I stongly disagree, for many reasons.

First off, I don't want to go into the army, and if this would push into affect, I'd be joining the service in three years.

Second off, a required draft would contradict a lot of people's religious beliefs. My religion actually requires people to go on a mission to tell about our church from 19-21. Military service would get in the way of that.

Then there are the Amish, who's problem's with technology would require them to not do so, along with thier seperation from government. And then there are a lot of other people. Pacifists, people who would never want to go to war no matter the cost.

I honestly can't approve of this. An all volunteer army gives a better image for America. Also, we have one of the the strongest(though not largest) armies in the world. Unless we go to war against China or Israel, we're in the lead.

And for all those wondering, yes we can win against Iran and North Korea with our current army. We still outnumber them, and considering Iran's tendencies to blow itself up for minimal affect, we're ahead by a considerable amount.
Belial

Bazu








Since: 01-29-05
From: New Zealand

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Posted on 11-20-06 12:38 PM Link | Quote
I'm probably the only person here who likes the idea of a draft. Yeah, I would go to war if I was drafted. Do you have any idea how good that experience would be?

But personally, I think that everyone needs to go through an extreme, physical course once they turn 18, just for survival. It would give everyone a sense of honor and loyalty, which is something most people in this day and age don't know of.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-20-06 06:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
I stongly disagree, for many reasons.

First off, I don't want to go into the army, and if this would push into affect, I'd be joining the service in three years.

Second off, a required draft would contradict a lot of people's religious beliefs. My religion actually requires people to go on a mission to tell about our church from 19-21. Military service would get in the way of that.

Then there are the Amish, who's problem's with technology would require them to not do so, along with thier seperation from government. And then there are a lot of other people. Pacifists, people who would never want to go to war no matter the cost.

I honestly can't approve of this. An all volunteer army gives a better image for America. Also, we have one of the the strongest(though not largest) armies in the world. Unless we go to war against China or Israel, we're in the lead.

And for all those wondering, yes we can win against Iran and North Korea with our current army. We still outnumber them, and considering Iran's tendencies to blow itself up for minimal affect, we're ahead by a considerable amount.

Volunteer meaning lower-middle class army, of course. Which was what I was trying to say. It would be an incentive to vote as well, if a war affects you, then you'll be forced think about it, and protest and whatnot.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

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Posted on 11-23-06 04:52 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Belial
I'm probably the only person here who likes the idea of a draft. Yeah, I would go to war if I was drafted. Do you have any idea how good that experience would be?
It would give everyone a sense of honor and loyalty, which is something most people in this day and age don't know of.


yeah, i'm sure 18 yr old seniors in HS would love to not be able to graduate because they were drafted. then coming home from war, not having a diploma, and making minimum wage their entire life.
or just about anyone would love to halt their entire life and be gone for like 4 years having their world turned upsidedown. like their g/f straying, or boss hires someone else, child's first b-day, ect...
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-23-06 05:44 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by avatar of law
Originally posted by Belial
I'm probably the only person here who likes the idea of a draft. Yeah, I would go to war if I was drafted. Do you have any idea how good that experience would be?
It would give everyone a sense of honor and loyalty, which is something most people in this day and age don't know of.


yeah, i'm sure 18 yr old seniors in HS would love to not be able to graduate because they were drafted. then coming home from war, not having a diploma, and making minimum wage their entire life.
or just about anyone would love to halt their entire life and be gone for like 4 years having their world turned upsidedown. like their g/f straying, or boss hires someone else, child's first b-day, ect...

Honor and loyalty is the archaic word for bullshit.
GuardianOni

Shaman








Since: 09-07-04
From: The dark path

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Posted on 11-23-06 07:03 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Logos

Honor and loyalty is the archaic word for bullshit.


Who are you to make that judgment? Those are two concepts I was raised on. And are large parts of who I am, and what I believe.

Honor, and loyalty are things that many people lack. And should be re-taught.

So instead of just dismissing something you obviously don't understand, try learning about it.

And one more thing, honor and loyalty are two separate words.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-23-06 08:49 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by avatar of law
Originally posted by Belial
I'm probably the only person here who likes the idea of a draft. Yeah, I would go to war if I was drafted. Do you have any idea how good that experience would be?
It would give everyone a sense of honor and loyalty, which is something most people in this day and age don't know of.


yeah, i'm sure 18 yr old seniors in HS would love to not be able to graduate because they were drafted. then coming home from war, not having a diploma, and making minimum wage their entire life.
or just about anyone would love to halt their entire life and be gone for like 4 years having their world turned upsidedown. like their g/f straying, or boss hires someone else, child's first b-day, ect...

Definitely. The ones that aren't sent can be used for food rations and possibly mittens. People might think of--[insert-deity] forbid--taking more interest in government policy. Can't have that happening, that's just "wrong." People might care more about people being killing overseas if it's them doing the killing, or dying for that matter. It is a shame I can't be part of this noble plan because of the medical requirements of the military.
Originally posted by GuardianOni
Originally posted by Logos

Honor and loyalty is the archaic word for bullshit.


Who are you to make that judgment? Those are two concepts I was raised on. And are large parts of who I am, and what I believe.

Honor, and loyalty are things that many people lack. And should be re-taught.

So instead of just dismissing something you obviously don't understand, try learning about it.

And one more thing, honor and loyalty are two separate words.

Having said too much, not wanting to derail this thread any more, you could make a new thread, or PM me or something if you want to debate that topic, it's nontopical here.

Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 170 days
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Posted on 11-24-06 07:55 AM Link | Quote
You know, there is one mild problem with your logic Logos, you know what that is?

The soldiers don't choose to go to war. Nor do the civillians for that matter. It is a matter for congress, and honestly, just because they went to war once, doesn't mean they will vote against a war. I know of people who once went to war, and they are still for the war in Iraq.

But maybe the soldiers might vote for the guy who would send them to war, right? Wrong. Most of the soldiers voted for George Bush, who sent them to war. What's more, they also voted when he was reelected, and they knew he was sending them to war.

So, to be honest, the political affect that you desire would not happen. And, as I already stated, with our current military, we could still take out Iran and North Korea. Also, we would have a lot more countries on our side against North Korea. Even China has a problem with them at the moment.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-24-06 03:47 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
You know, there is one mild problem with your logic Logos, you know what that is?

The soldiers don't choose to go to war. Nor do the civillians for that matter. It is a matter for congress, and honestly, just because they went to war once, doesn't mean they will vote against a war. I know of people who once went to war, and they are still for the war in Iraq.

But maybe the soldiers might vote for the guy who would send them to war, right? Wrong. Most of the soldiers voted for George Bush, who sent them to war. What's more, they also voted when he was reelected, and they knew he was sending them to war.

So, to be honest, the political affect that you desire would not happen. And, as I already stated, with our current military, we could still take out Iran and North Korea. Also, we would have a lot more countries on our side against North Korea. Even China has a problem with them at the moment.


First of all, support your points with valid evidence, please. What you call knowing a lot of people, is nothing in the massive populace that makes up the entire country.
Second of all, citizens choose who represents them, one can vote for their senator, president, and so on. And your last point is not clearly stated, and doesn't seem to be relevant to the topic at hand.
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

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Posted on 11-28-06 11:08 PM Link | Quote
I'm agaist the draft, completely and totally. It was ended for a reason, and it should not be brought back. End of story.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-29-06 01:53 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
I'm agaist the draft, completely and totally. It was ended for a reason, and it should not be brought back. End of story.


Excuse me, but that's not an argument, you fail to support your claim with any sort of evidence. How can it so easily be "end of story," I wish to know?
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

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Posted on 11-29-06 02:48 AM Link | Quote
Why bother repeating that which has already been said for years? But if you want...

I don't think it is right to force people to join if they do not want to. If there had been no draft in the 1960s then the Vietnam war would have ended much earlier because there would not have been enough troops. Hence why they got rid of the draft later.

The only time that the draft really comes into play is during a time of war... so let's say I get drafted. I'm Wiccan, right there we have two major problems: 1) Major religious discrimination that I can do almost nothing about. 2) Conciencious (sp?) objector... which people get bitchy over. I don't like dealing with bitchy people.

Sure, technically I would be immune to the draft since I'm a college student... provided that they didn't take that part out. But what about loved ones and friends that are not? I don't want someone that I care about shipped off to a place where I may never see them again, especially if it was not thier choice.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-29-06 03:23 AM Link | Quote
The military can't force a pacifist to fight, but there are other jobs for one who doesn't want to fight. If one does not want to go to a war, one should vote for the representative that backs their views.
And a clarification, Elara, you said the idea of the draft is not "right," so you're basing your case off the overlying value of what? Justice? Ethics?
Cairoi
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

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Posted on 11-29-06 10:16 AM Link | Quote
Logos, I know you're following the rules and not breaking any, but you're seeming to pull at many people's nerves, so as a non-staff warning, just from me, be a tad nicer, please.

In my personal opinion, I am against the draft. I think by instating the draft we'd only be ruining lives. If you want to join the military, go ahead. I just don't want to take part.

I have here in the United States a loving girlfriend, a caring and close family, and many amazing friends. And if I was drafted, I would make them all cry. I can't do that.

I have a vague plan of how I want to live, and the damnable civil war should be fought by the nation itself.

Oh, and now that our Congress is Democrat majority, a party who are incredibly AGAINST the war, definately vote against a draft?
Just a thought, I dunno.
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

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Posted on 11-29-06 01:21 PM Link | Quote
Incidentally, if Rangel actually wins his case with Congress and the draft is re-instilled on his terms, being in college and fleeing to Canada would be no escape. With the past proposal he had, he had written that EVERYBODY between the ages of 18-26 were up for the draft if their numbers were called, and the northern borders would be tightened (Both stipulations I'm sure he's trying to keep in there).

Understandably, were one attempting to flee to Canada, I'm sure there are many ways, but how ridiculous can it get with this border watch business we've got going on? We've got National Guard watching the Mexican border crossings and the Minutemen project trying to maintain watching what little they can (to keep those Mexicans from stealing our jobs, they say. You know, jobs that mostly no one wants to do anyway) and now if this draft bill goes through they're going to start putting more troops on border watch? What the hell are we becoming? Will a second wave of Minutemen, this time trying to keep Americans in, begin?

Of course this also throws in the amount of security at the airports. While I'm all for security, the more security we place, the less freedom we have and America is just caging itself in.

I don't know if this bill has actually passed yet or not as I haven't heard anything lately, and obviously my rant is only based on if this goes through, but these are all things to consider should any future draft bill be passed.
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
Posted on 11-29-06 03:51 PM Link | Quote
My definition of "not right" in this case is relates to being forced into something you may not want to do. It goes against that whole "freedom" thing that people think America is so great for.

And if his bill means that everyone is eligible for the draft there is going to be major problems. Conciencious objectors aside, members of the Jehovah's Witness faith have always been exempt from military service because it's against their beliefs to serve in the military at all. Amish have been excluded as well for their old ways.

And they can't stop you from leaving the country unless you have actually been drafted... I woudn't give them that chance. Move before they get me, that's my plan.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

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Last activity: 5957 days
Posted on 11-30-06 01:40 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
My definition of "not right" in this case is relates to being forced into something you may not want to do.

I believe the term is "human agency," if by any chance anyone wants to know. It essentially refers to the freedom of people to make and act upon their own decisions, to put it in short.


(Last edited by Logos on 11-30-06 04:41 AM)
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