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07-04-22 11:06 PM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - What do you consider a opinion? | |
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Jedi Master Desroth

Priest








Since: 08-24-04
From: Macomb

Since last post: 4399 days
Last activity: 3838 days
Posted on 10-04-06 12:48 AM Link | Quote
This topic has rather recently started to bother me. What do you all really consider to be a opinion here? Do you think opinions should only be good things, or do you think opinions should be what you really think and feel? I want to know and so does everyone else for that matter.

Few Rules on this Debate:

First post should atleast say what you think a opinion is, stating facts and such, then you can start debating others views on opinions. Dont just suddenly appear and rip somone to shreds without first introducing your concept of a opinion. This will be orderly and in good taste to finally once and for all make everyone aware exactly what you think about this. Frankly, im tired of people misinterpreting things and beating a dead horse over the stupidest things like their own opinions and feelings...

LET THE DEBATE BEGINITH!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinions in my mind are whatever you personally believe. They are your own thought processes and are unique to your own person. I also believe that when you ask for someones opinion on something, you should honor it instead of trying to stamp it out because it raises contrevorsey. Without people voices their opinions, no one would be where they are at today. In fact, we would still be part of jolly good England if we never spoke out against England in a negative way.

Simple as that. Next person post and critique!
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 11 days
Posted on 10-04-06 02:56 AM Link | Quote
I agree with your definition of opinion, and while I also feel that stamping out the opinion is wrong, it is fine to try and change someone's opinion by presenting facts and angles that the person may not have considered before, or by dispelling a myth they had believed.

Some opinions, however, will always meet with a violent reaction (i.e. anti-semetic opinions, etc). Of course, this is mainly a result of our society.

As far as the beating a dead horse part, the only time I've seen that get really bad here was in the case of a circular reasoning argument ("I believe this" "Why?" "Because I believe it", etc) and was more trying to just get a straight answer. Those cases are annoying, however if handled tactfully it can keep from ruining a thread.
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5233 days
Last activity: 5324 days
Posted on 10-04-06 03:20 AM Link | Quote
I agree what you're saying about saying what you feel and all, but the structure point is integral. Here's how I would approach a topic:

I agree/disagree/qualify with topic A.
Contentions furthering my stance, backed with evidence of some sort, ending with the impact of contention.

What annoys me is when someone tries to be smart and tries to make a cliffhanger out of a topic, instead of all-out stating their resolution.
Jedi Master Desroth

Priest








Since: 08-24-04
From: Macomb

Since last post: 4399 days
Last activity: 3838 days
Posted on 10-04-06 08:55 AM Link | Quote
Yeah, I see how some opinions are just morally wrong to others and you shouldnt broadcast them. But it is a double edged sword when it comes to opinions.

Don't ask for a opinion if your not ready to handle it.

I think that is what is wrong with some people. They ask for a opinion, then get angry when you give them something they didnt want to hear. I guess that covers any morally wrong opinions as well. Dont ask a KKK member what he thinks about African Americans, Jewish people, etc if you dont want to hear what he has to say!
Rauni









Since: 08-14-04

Since last post: 674 days
Last activity: 674 days
Posted on 10-04-06 09:23 AM Link | Quote
While I often give out my opinion, I often get a dumb reply back instead. Sometime, I even get a same reply back instead.

"While death penalty is legal, it still falls under as an act of immoral and some evidence can be planted as to get someone a death penalty without a problem."
"Dude, you know that every CSI or the trail will have very long searches and will fix the puzzles together."
"Say that to when an evidence is MISSING from a crime scene, and no where to be found. Then you would instead kill an innocent because of your legalizing death penalty."
"But we still have through searches and will solve the crime."
"Come on, ANY excuses can be made up by that. What kind of opinion is that when all you can say is just one thing, that doesn't meant anything to people worldwide? Have you explain more clearly on why we should have legal death penalty, I wouldn't mind if you explain more instead of "closely-watched searches" because like I said: One missing evidence, you can die from it.
"But we can still have team search and find the missing evidence."
"Oh god... Missing as in you can't find it. Missing as ANYONE can't find it."

What is so good about opinion when all people can do is just focus on ONE thing. Opinion are meant to say everything from your mind, not just "OMFG, look at this guy's opinion. I'm gonna bash him now because he have no clue!" I mean, come on, it is an OPINION. There is no reason why people should have a bitch fit over it, because opinion is from someone's point of view, not your!
Cteno

Super Shotgun
Moderator








Since: 01-11-05

Since last post: 969 days
Last activity: 89 days
Posted on 10-04-06 03:54 PM Link | Quote
*Applauds Seticus*

That's probably the most sense anybody has made in a good LONG time. I agree fully.

I hate how if you have a different opinion than other people and they completely bash you for it. I mean, that's why they call it an OPINION! It's your reflection on the whole thing, NOT THEIRS.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 4303 days
Last activity: 156 days
Posted on 10-04-06 06:24 PM Link | Quote
Well, I feel like I might as well step in and say my piece.

So many of todays issues no longer have a black and white, true or false answer. We can no longer declare social issues as completely right or completely wrong. People always find grey areas or theoretical situations that change the "truth" of something.

No opinion is right or wrong, but more or less informed. And even then, my informed opinion is based on my interpretation of the information I have received. Any other person could get that same information and see it as meaning something else.

I think people care too much about the opinions of others, or react too strongly when an opinion that differs from theirs is announced.

Who cares if someone else thinks that x band is better than y band, or whatever it is. If you think something, what someone else thinks doesn't make what you think any more or less true.
Spartan

Metal battleaxe
Is back. Kind of.








Since: 11-15-04

Since last post: 1458 days
Last activity: 698 days
Posted on 10-04-06 08:05 PM Link | Quote
The opinion is yours...people tailor to fit their beliefs and misconceptions and ignorance on a topic...


Opinion bashing is ridiculous..hell when two people get into arguements over such things it drives me nuts...specially people who have no clue what the topic is yet they need to come in and interject their little bit of opinion into the convo...


I will end on this.

Everyone is titled to an opinion..whether I decide to aknowledge your opinion is up to me...

Pockets

Werewolf
pockets








Since: 10-20-04

Since last post: 4219 days
Last activity: 3736 days
Posted on 10-04-06 11:04 PM Link | Quote
A few things. First. Geeogree, I must point out that you broke the first rule of
this debate. You just jumped in with your opinion without first defining your
understanding of the term "opinion."

Second. I believe an opinion to be a belief held by an individual.

Third. Spartan. As I've been learning in my critical thinking class, questioning
someones opinion about something is actually a good thing. Now if one
actually ATTACKS someones opinion that's one thing, but calmly debating and
questioning is a good basis for conversation. Also, the questioning of beliefs is
the most important part of critical thinking.

That's what Socrates was actually most famous for. Someone would state a
belief or opinion and he would then question it until he poked out all the holes in
their arguments and either proved their belief was incorrect, or at the least could
use some redefining, or shown that their belief was correct.

And on a sort of moral debate Spartan, are people really completely entitled to
their own opinion? It's a murky and dangerous area of critical thinking called,
"Subjectivism." Say I am of the opinion that to me murdering anyone over the age
of 60 is perfectly morally right and aceptable. I mean they're old anyway, make
room for new generations.

If I hold that opinion, does that make it right?

on a side note, I LOVE a good debate. =)
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5233 days
Last activity: 5324 days
Posted on 10-04-06 11:51 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by geeogree
Well, I feel like I might as well step in and say my piece.

So many of todays issues no longer have a black and white, true or false answer. We can no longer declare social issues as completely right or completely wrong. People always find grey areas or theoretical situations that change the "truth" of something.

No opinion is right or wrong, but more or less informed. And even then, my informed opinion is based on my interpretation of the information I have received. Any other person could get that same information and see it as meaning something else.

I think people care too much about the opinions of others, or react too strongly when an opinion that differs from theirs is announced.

Who cares if someone else thinks that x band is better than y band, or whatever it is. If you think something, what someone else thinks doesn't make what you think any more or less true.

I agree with geeogree on this point, and he doesn't need to define opinion, it's just what an individual or group thinks, one can look it up if they want, it's not a contraversial term. He states his opinion concerning an opinion quite clearly, if I might note. I don't like people tossing oACT ut the word "moral" with such levity, as morality is simply the adherrence to authority. Good and bad are "grey" terms, my idea of good may be different from another person's. And to Pockets, just a question: shouldn't you be critically thinking in your critical thinking class? ATTACKS (in big caps) isn't too different from "calmly debating," it's just how you interpret the meanings and context of how they are used.
Pockets

Werewolf
pockets








Since: 10-20-04

Since last post: 4219 days
Last activity: 3736 days
Posted on 10-05-06 10:54 AM Link | Quote
The attacks in caps was meant to stress the difference between a person
attacking someone elses position or opinion for no reason than to be malicious,
as opposed to have a discussion for the sake of discussion.

go back to Master Desroths first post where he specifically states, "first post
should at least say what you think an opinion is, stating facts and such."

Morality cannot not also be defined simply by decribing it as an adherence to
authority. Frequently a moral choice defies authority. Let me ask you a
question we were debating in my class.

Is homosexuality immoral?
Spartan

Metal battleaxe
Is back. Kind of.








Since: 11-15-04

Since last post: 1458 days
Last activity: 698 days
Posted on 10-05-06 12:05 PM Link | Quote
No it is not...I would have to do more research to give you a solid facts about what determines I have heard chemical Imbalance, Faulty Genetics...I dont think its immoral but thats my opinion as one of the few actual Bi people..
Jedi Master Desroth

Priest








Since: 08-24-04
From: Macomb

Since last post: 4399 days
Last activity: 3838 days
Posted on 10-05-06 09:03 PM Link | Quote
Science and the general population are afraid of the unknown that they choose to put labels on everything and try to make sense of things that you can not label.

Homosexuality is feeling a attraction to the same sex and being with them in love. The term Homosexuality is 2 terms, Homo meaning same and sexuality meaning to pertain to or be about sex and or being in love with someone sexually/what gender you like to be with. How is there any form of chemical imbalance in this equation? If it is a imbalance, how come there isnt a pill to fight homosexuality? We have pills to fight everything from aches and pains to depression, but yet we cant make a pill to cure homosexuality? Ill tell you why! Homosexuality has nothing to do with chemical imbalances, it is about who you chose to love. Science is afraid of anything different and they try to cover it up with lies.

That is just my opinion on the matter. My mothers best friend is a lesbian. I have asked her why she is a lesbian, and she said it is becuase all the men in her life have treated her like shit and the only person who actually loved her was her girlfriend. They both liked eachother alot, and eventually became lovers. Now you cant tell me that a "chemical imbalance" occured because all the men she went out with treated her like dirt. Im not buying it for a instant.

But back to the original topic. Morals are what you believe it is. Good and evil are merely words that carry a meaning that we place on them. The terrorists see themselves as good guys, while we view them as bad guys. Homosexuality is only immoral if that is what you believe. Back to my mothers friend, she basically runs a small christian church for gays and straights, though christians and catholic based religons say that homosexuality is a sin and you will go to hell. There is no exact line in the bible that says this, but the power hungry bishops of the time wanted to stamp out everything that could possible contradict them and rise up to them by saying to the uneducated masses the being in love with the same sex was wrong in the eyes of god and you would be sent to hell.

In short: Morality is what you believe to be right and wrong. If I was raised as a thief and taught to steal, I wouldnt think what I was doing was wrong, but the rest of society would view me as being morally wrong.
Banned
Banned








Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 5093 days
Last activity: 5093 days
Posted on 10-05-06 10:47 PM Link | Quote
My definition of an oppinion.

Oppinion - A definitive statement that includes the words "Good" "bad" "right" or "wrong" or any words meaning these things, such as "Better" or "Worse".




(Last edited by .SK on 10-06-06 01:48 AM)
Rauni









Since: 08-14-04

Since last post: 674 days
Last activity: 674 days
Posted on 10-06-06 12:28 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jedi Master Desroth
In short: Morality is what you believe to be right and wrong. If I was raised as a thief and taught to steal, I wouldnt think what I was doing was wrong, but the rest of society would view me as being morally wrong.

But that is the problem. Your thieving would be considered immortal due to that you take what item from the rightful owner to yourself. And by going that way, you are basically saying that you are God himself as well. However, if you were born and raised as the thief from the day you were born, then it is would be a different story. Also, in Robin Hood's case, (even through he is fictional.) he also steal from the rich but in order to give them to the poor so that they lived for another day.

And not only that morality is what you believe is to be right or wrong, but if someone kill a innocent in cold blood to "save" someone, would that be morally right? Morality is something we can't say it to ourselves, because if we believe that morality is whatever our decisions to make to be "right," we would be already powerful then we were before. We may even be inhuman as well!

I don't believes we tell what our moral decision is, it is the choice of how other people can see it either as the act of kindness or the betrayal and hatred. They can either sing praises of your heroic action or they can spill bad information and name calling you.

And something for .SK - If what you said is true:

I hardly believe that .SK is contributing toward this thread, so my question is... Why does he assume that opinion must be either right or wrong, when opinion can be also be a neutral as well? If I supported that restriction of Human Cloning, as opposed to banning them completely or supporting to copy an exact replica, how is this for either good, bad, for better, or for worse?
Jedi Master Desroth

Priest








Since: 08-24-04
From: Macomb

Since last post: 4399 days
Last activity: 3838 days
Posted on 10-07-06 02:58 AM Link | Quote
I know this is a really lame example, but it gets the point across... Bakura from Yugioh World of Memories *the older looking thief Bakura from the past* carries a spirit that is good, but uses it for evil. He says that if all it takes to command a good spirit is to fight for justice, then he can fight for his own type of justice (albeit that he is actually fighting for revenge and power, but that is what he believes is justice).

Morals vary from person to person. Someone who finds nothing wrong with commiting crimes and stealing things, and actually steals things and commits crimes, would not see himself as a criminal (someone who is morally and criminally wrong), but rather as someone who is normal. The rest of "civilized" society would see him as being a criminal. A good example that you brought up was Robin Hood. He was not raised to be a thief, but he finds it perfectly okay to steal from people (although they are rich and dont give money to the poor, it is still viewed as wrong by the "civilized" upper class of that time). You do not play god when you have different morals from the rest of the society you live in, you simply live your life by what you know is right and wrong.

Morals: What you personally know to be right and wrong based on your experiences, your upbringing, or status in society.

Another example would be something like this:

People in Eroupe go nude at almost all of their beaches since they do not find the human body offensive or vulgar to be seen unclothed in public on a beach. If they came to America and went to the beach here, assuming they do not know about american beaches which is highly likely in some parts of Eroupe, they would come out onto the beach naked. To the foreign person who is naked, he/she thinks that this a perfectly acceptable thing to do, while the americans on the beach would be highly offended and call the cops to arrest this naked person for indecent exposure. Now then, based on the morals that both parties hold, we can see both are totally different on the same topic (Being naked on a beach). Eroupeans dont find it wrong at all to be naked on a beach, while us americans find it totally offensive.
Banned
Banned








Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 5093 days
Last activity: 5093 days
Posted on 10-11-06 10:44 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Seticus
Originally posted by Jedi Master Desroth
I hardly believe that .SK is contributing toward this thread, so my question is... Why does he assume that opinion must be either right or wrong, when opinion can be also be a neutral as well?


How is being completely neutral on a subject an oppinion? Sounds like a lack of an oppinion, to me.
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5233 days
Last activity: 5324 days
Posted on 10-11-06 11:14 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; "my opinion differs from yours"; "what are your thoughts on Haiti?"
# public opinion: a belief or sentiment shared by most people; the voice of the people; "he asked for a poll of public opinion"
# a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"
# the legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision; "opinions are usually written by a single judge"
# the reason for a court's judgment (as opposed to the decision itself)
# impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"


For example, it is my opinion that .SK is not contributing to this thread. One cannot say that my opinion regarding .SK's thread contribution is right or wrong, namely because it's my opinion. Right and wrong are statements meant for questions like 1+1=2.
Xeios

You WANKER!








Since: 08-16-04

Since last post: 4203 days
Last activity: 513 days
Posted on 10-15-06 03:41 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Logos
For example, it is my opinion that .SK is not contributing to this thread. One cannot say that my opinion regarding .SK's thread contribution is right or wrong, namely because it's my opinion. Right and wrong are statements meant for questions like 1+1=2.


Though one could surely say that the argument insinuated by your opinion is popularly incorrect as he added a bit of humor to the thread whilst you only said that his humor(in your opinion) was inappropriate.
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5233 days
Last activity: 5324 days
Posted on 10-15-06 09:03 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xeios
Originally posted by Logos
For example, it is my opinion that .SK is not contributing to this thread. One cannot say that my opinion regarding .SK's thread contribution is right or wrong, namely because it's my opinion. Right and wrong are statements meant for questions like 1+1=2.


Though one could surely say that the argument insinuated by your opinion is popularly incorrect as he added a bit of humor to the thread whilst you only said that his humor(in your opinion) was inappropriate.


Just to clarify, terms like "correct" and "incorrect" are not normative statements, they are positive statements. To provide yet another example, one wouldn't say killing is incorrect, they would say killing is wrong or immoral or whatsnot. Sorry if I didn't make clear what I defined a opinion as, but now I will get to the point.
For the purpose of this debate, I define an opinion as a normative statement. I for one cannot see any instances that opinion is not a normative statement, so anyone feel free to debate my definition.
[EDIT] Corrected ambiguous usage of "it."


(Last edited by Logos on 10-16-06 12:11 AM)
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