New link in the top of page "IRC Chat".
Register | Login
Views: 110154752
Main | Memberlist | Active users | Calendar | Last Posts | IRC Chat | Online users
Ranks | FAQ | XPW | Stats | Color Chart | Photo album
10-04-22 10:08 AM
0 users currently in Debate Shrine.
Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Who Do You Support? | |
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5Next newer thread | Next older thread
Who Do You Support?
Barack Obama
 
45.0%, 9 votes
Hillary Rodham Clinton
 
5.0%, 1 vote
John Edwards
 
5.0%, 1 vote
Mike Gravel   0.0%, 0 vote
Rudy Guiliani   0.0%, 0 vote
Mike Huckabee   0.0%, 0 vote
Ron Paul
 
40.0%, 8 votes
Mitt Romney
 
5.0%, 1 vote
Fred Thompson   0.0%, 0 vote
John McCain   0.0%, 0 vote
Joe Biden   0.0%, 0 vote
Multi-voting is disabled. 20 users have voted.

User Post
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 1700 days
Last activity: 551 days
Posted on 02-14-08 07:49 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
As for the quip about China... okay, what about the UK? They have a military on par with our own... they spend about $60 billion a year.

Not taking sides here, but the UK is also a much smaller country...
Cairoi
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 4069 days
Last activity: 3692 days
Posted on 02-16-08 11:51 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Spartan

Shafting me is when I'm doing my EOD training and cause some jackass liberal decided to cut our budget we can't have an adequate training facility and due to that when I AM deployed (my job pretty much guarantees I'm going to Iraq or Afghan) I wasnt able to be instructed to the best of the abilities due to lack of a budget some soldier ends up missing a leg or an arm because "We cut the military budget cause our school system can't spend its money effectively"




I always thought soldiers end up missing arms and legs because of bombs and bullets. If you guys weren't in hostile operations right now, that wouldn't really be an issue.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 1742 days
Last activity: 824 days
Posted on 02-17-08 10:54 AM Link | Quote
This discussion isn't suddenly going to force me to mention that I support the war in Iraq, is it?

Originally posted by Elara
And notice that you're complaints are about inadequate training... which is education. Doesn't matter what field you are in, it's the same problem that I have.


Yeah, but military training comes from the budget given to the military...not the money sent to public school systems. So, technically, he has a completely different problem than you do.

Originally posted by Elara
Better than education, how about universal health care? We could have that.


Now see, THAT is something I would have a huge problem with. Not only would my dad no longer have a job, since he works for a health insurance company, but it wouldn't work all that well.

First off, let's remember what's going on with schools. How much money would really go towards us, the people, and our health? My guess is not a huge amount.

Second off, we all hear about how Canada has this, and how great Canada is with its health, Canada is super-awesome, right? Wrong. With a bit of research, you can easily learn that getting an operation in Canada can take a HUGE amount of time. So, need a heart transplant immediately? You can afford it? Too bad! We're going to make you wait until WE think you should go, even though this one guy ahead of you has been using drugs, drinking a ton of alchohol, and probably won't survive that long with a new heart anyway.

You see the problem?

Now, assuming we could get both of those problems worked out, how much money would it cost to pay for the health of three hundred million people? Let's go with about five million(that's probably WAY less than what's actually spent) to keep each of these people alive and completely healthy for sixty years, that's 1,500,000,000,000,000 dollars!

One and a half quadrillion dollars!

Of course, that's for sixty years, so let's divide that by sixty, and see if we can make that budget a little bit easier to manage...25,000,000,000,000! Twenty-five trillion dollars...per year... around five times our national debt...

So you see, if this goes to the government to take care of, then everyone is going to have a lower standard of living, or America is going to die of debt, because that is one heck of a lot of money.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 4395 days
Last activity: 247 days
Posted on 02-17-08 04:16 PM Link | Quote
I'm not taking sides here but I suggest you research the amount of money an average person needs to have spent on them to have their health care paid for.



and on a side note, "universal" health care is not all inclusive. It only covers a certain basic coverage plan that is decided by the government. There are many things over and above that have to be paid for by the user of the health care system. This still leaves people who don't get what others do because they can't afford it.
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 3050 days
Last activity: 2946 days
Posted on 02-17-08 04:44 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
So, need a heart transplant immediately? You can afford it? Too bad! We're going to make you wait until WE think you should go, even though this one guy ahead of you has been using drugs, drinking a ton of alchohol, and probably won't survive that long with a new heart anyway.


Just because they provide free health care, doesn't mean you don't have to qualify for the transplant. They'll still make sure that you wont destroy your new organs.
Cairoi
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 4069 days
Last activity: 3692 days
Posted on 02-17-08 07:03 PM Link | Quote
Yeah, Vulkar, five million? Where in the world did you pull that number from?

The United Food and Commercial Workers organization says we spend about $6,400 on health care, and a significant portion of this comes from research.

If we were able to cut down on the administrative bullshit and streamline the medicine business, it could probably be much more effective.
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 3050 days
Last activity: 2946 days
Posted on 02-17-08 09:22 PM Link | Quote
How about this:

If every country that maintains a standing army put them on vacation for two weeks, there'd be enough money to provide food, shelter, and clothing for 95% of the world that needs it.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 1742 days
Last activity: 824 days
Posted on 02-17-08 10:57 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cairoi

The United Food and Commercial Workers organization says we spend about $6,400 on health care, and a significant portion of this comes from research.


Dude...

A few years ago(about a month after we started getting health insurance, coincedentally enough), my mom needed her appendix removed.

That costed $20,000 alone.

I'll respond to the rest in a little while, but I realized that I did make a mistake with the numbers. It's closer to one million, assuming you count the amount of money someone spends at the end of their life to keep themselves alive a little bit longer.
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 3050 days
Last activity: 2946 days
Posted on 02-17-08 11:09 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rakluv
That costed $20,000 alone.


But, you see, that is because the medical industry is trying to turn profit.

EDIT: Here's John Edward's plan for free healthcare:

Originally posted by Wikipedia
On February 5, 2007, Edwards unveiled his plan for universal health care. The plan subsidizes health insurance purchases for poorer Americans, requires that all Americans purchase health care [18], "requires that everybody get preventive care," [19] and requires employers to offer health insurance through the Medicare system as one option for their workers. Since Medicare has lower administrative costs ? under 4%, versus 20% or more for many HMOs[20] ? Edwards believes that individuals will be able to save on health care by using the public option. While it is not a single-payer plan, the plan states that "over time, the system may evolve toward a single-payer approach if individuals and businesses prefer the public plan." and make Medicare the de facto national health program.

Edwards said "The bottom line is we're asking everybody to share in the responsibility of making health care work in this country. Employers, those who are in the medical insurance business, employees, the American people ? everyone will have to contribute in order to make this work."[21] The plan includes methods for cutting costs in the health care system and creation of revenue sources.[22]

[edit] Cost Containment

There are six ways in which Edwards proposes to reduce costs in the health care system.

1. Help doctors deliver the best care by researching improvements in health care delivery and disseminating best-practices information.
2. Invest in preventive care. Require citizens to obtain preventative care; reward citizens who meet "healthy living" standards.
3. Allow patients to review a hospital's or doctor's performance.
4. Work for environmental and health justice by reducing pollution, especially in low-income/minority neighborhoods and support translation services.
5. Improve productivity with information technology.
6. Protect patients against dangerous medicines by strengthening the FDA and restricting advertising of drugs.

[edit] Revenue sources

The total public cost of the plan would be $90?$120 billion per year, paid for by eliminating the 2001 tax cuts for individuals earning more than $200,000 per year.[23] Employers would be required to either cover their employees or to pay a payroll tax that will be used to partially fund regional health insurance pools (called "Health Markets") that are overseen by the federal government. Individuals who are not covered by their employers or by an expanded Medicaid program (covering individuals and families with incomes up to 250% of the poverty level) or Medicare will be required to purchase insurance from these Health Markets. Insurance companies must compete to win the right to be one of the providers in these Health Markets and must provide full comprehensive care (including mental health parity). In addition, one of the insurance plans will be directly provided by the federal government (similar to, but separate from Medicare). If a majority of individuals choose to purchase their insurance from the government plan, Edwards has stated that this could eventually lead to a single-payer health care system. In addition, there will also be a broad subsidy for those individuals who have to purchase insurance on their own. The subsidy is given on a sliding scale to individuals and families making up to roughly $100,000 per year (this is a significantly larger subsidy than is provided in the Massachusetts health care plan, another mandated insurance program).



(Last edited by Sussoloc Ythgim Eht on 02-18-08 02:12 AM)
天国JOE

���A�ǂ��ɂȂ�̂���낤�H








Since: 09-02-04
From: Destroy Tower

Since last post: 3245 days
Last activity: 2610 days
Posted on 02-18-08 01:40 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rakluv
Second off, we all hear about how Canada has this, and how great Canada is with its health, Canada is super-awesome, right? Wrong. With a bit of research, you can easily learn that getting an operation in Canada can take a HUGE amount of time. So, need a heart transplant immediately? You can afford it? Too bad! We're going to make you wait until WE think you should go, even though this one guy ahead of you has been using drugs, drinking a ton of alchohol, and probably won't survive that long with a new heart anyway.
I have never witnessed nor heard of this happening.

I support Obama, by the way, but it's not like it matters.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 28 days
Posted on 02-19-08 09:49 PM Link | Quote
I haven't heard of that either. Also, it's not just Canada that has universal health care.

And for the record I know that military training and public education run on different funding, but he expressed the same issue that I have... proper education is important. However, I feel it is more important in the private sector because, well, there are so many more people there and so many different things to train. Don't you want your teachers to know how to teach, your doctors to be competent? I'm sure that if you want to go into the business world that you'd want to actually know what the hell you are doing. And what about those people who are really bright, and would excel in their preferred field, but they can't afford to pay for tuition and books? Not everyone can get a full ride scholarship or qualify for financial aid.

And yes, I also agree that $20,000 to remove a vestigial organ... a really easy to remove vestigial organ... is gouging by the medical industry. It really shouldn't cost that much at all. Sometimes I swear that if they found a cure for cancer it would be worthless because no one would be able to afford it.
Spartan

Metal battleaxe
Is back. Kind of.








Since: 11-15-04

Since last post: 1549 days
Last activity: 790 days
Posted on 02-21-08 02:59 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara

And what about those people who are really bright, and would excel in their preferred field, but they can't afford to pay for tuition and books? Not everyone can get a full ride scholarship or qualify for financial aid.


I hate to sound like a real prick but there are THOUSANDS of unclaimed scholarship dollars and if they were as bright as you say they are then they should have no issue quailifying for full ride scholarships.
Nephitaem

Merchant








Since: 03-24-07
From: Rhode Island

Since last post: 4445 days
Last activity: 4445 days
Posted on 02-23-08 11:32 PM Link | Quote
i actualy think that i like clinton more. shes a bad speaker, but her husband was good, why not her too?

and spartan(and elara too), just because your smart doesn't mean that you can get financial aid. a lot of todays schools and programs and financial aid arent nearly as based on pure smartness as they should be. for instance, you can be pretty smart, but unless you have a bunch of paper work saying that you did a lot of expensive and hard things then they wont let you get in.

universities dont care about how smart you are to get financial aid, they only care abotu what youve done and proof that you'll do a lot of hard work, and to be honest, if you can prove your a hard worker, instead of smart liek you should be, you can get in no matter how stupid you are.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 4988 days
Last activity: 4988 days
Posted on 02-25-08 05:39 AM Link | Quote
I'm just surprised that there's an even split between repub and demo here :O I thought we were all liberal here =/
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 4395 days
Last activity: 247 days
Posted on 02-25-08 11:14 AM Link | Quote
.... Ron Paul is not a conservative....

so there is a huge lean towards liberal
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 14 days
Posted on 02-25-08 02:14 PM Link | Quote
Yeah, Ron Paul's ideas don't exactly fit in the Republican mold. I really like what he stands for. More so than Hillary or Obama.

And there are a few conservatives on the board. The liberals are just loud.


(Last edited by Rogue on 02-25-08 05:41 PM)
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 1742 days
Last activity: 824 days
Posted on 02-25-08 02:40 PM Link | Quote
Coem on, surely I've been around and posting long enough to count as a conservative.

Anyway, something I jsut discovered on the Obama front...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7263783.stm

Tell me everyone, if Obama never had been muslim, and has no islamic leanings, why was he trying to hide that picture?!

Sure, he dismisses it as "fear mongering", but he has yet to tell us why he was hidng the picture? If he was just wearing it out of respect for another country, surely he wouldn't have kept it quiet for so long!

And of course, more on my problems with Obama...

First off, remember his wife's speech? How she said she has never been proud of America until just recently? Yeah, SURE that's who we want as a first lady. Sounds perfect, right?

And then...he has on many, many occaisons, decided that holding his hand over his heart during the national anthem was unneccesarry. He doesn't actually need to show that he LIKES America to become president, does he?

Oh yeah, and finally, you know that United States flag pen that all of the senators wear? He doesn't have it! He completely ignores it.

Now, tell me, all this, combined with his huge amount of inexperience in American politics, along with all of these rumors that he was raised a muslim, and the fact that you have to actually do a lot of research to find out what he stands for...does all this sound good?

Because so far, I've heard two good things about him. First off, he stands for "Hope" and "the future". Of course, unless you go deep into his website, you'll never find out what his "hope and "future" are, it doesn't really mean anything. (his hope is making it so that politics are clean and completely perfect...which is pretty oxymoronic considering the amount of unethical politics he got into in order to become a senator...)

His second good thing is that he's a great speaker. If I didn't know so many things about him, I'd like him. He does a lot of cool things, and he generally puts out a decent outer image...

Notice how neither of the good things about him actually apply to leadership? Tell me everyone, how on earth is this guy beating Hilary?

Granted, I don't liek her either, but she has way less problems put out for her to beat...
天国JOE

���A�ǂ��ɂȂ�̂���낤�H








Since: 09-02-04
From: Destroy Tower

Since last post: 3245 days
Last activity: 2610 days
Posted on 02-25-08 06:36 PM Link | Quote
A lot of those points relating to 'patriotism' Vulkar is like "who cares?" He doesn't wear a pin? I love my parents, but I don't wear their faces on my shirt everyday. In Canada, our parliament members don't wear the Canadian flag all the time. Pins vary (if they have one). What does it matter? It's just a pin. Anyone can wear it, even someone who HATES the country.

As for experience, men WITH experience in politics have done bad jobs all over the world. So it can't hurt. It's not like he entered the political stage just yesterday.
Originally posted by Rakluv
If I didn't know so many things about him
Heh, that makes it sound you know him personally and have spied on him and stuff. XD
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 3050 days
Last activity: 2946 days
Posted on 02-25-08 09:56 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rakluv
Tell me everyone, if Obama never had been muslim, and has no islamic leanings, why was he trying to hide that picture?!

Sure, he dismisses it as "fear mongering", but he has yet to tell us why he was hidng the picture? If he was just wearing it out of respect for another country, surely he wouldn't have kept it quiet for so long!

Perhaps he hid it because he knew people would react like this? And you know what, so fucking what if he's muslim? Does that automatically make him a terrorist, or a worse leader? It's flat out racism.


First off, remember his wife's speech? How she said she has never been proud of America until just recently? Yeah, SURE that's who we want as a first lady. Sounds perfect, right?

So? I'm not proud of America at all. Besides, the first lady doesn't have any political power, she's just a public figure.


And then...he has on many, many occaisons, decided that holding his hand over his heart during the national anthem was unneccesarry. He doesn't actually need to show that he LIKES America to become president, does he?

Oh yeah, and finally, you know that United States flag pen that all of the senators wear? He doesn't have it! He completely ignores it.

Once again, so fucking what? He doesn't do tiny minute things. As a matter of fact, I kind of like him more for this. He's not a conformist and knows that these tiny minute things mean jack shit.


all of these rumors that he was raised a muslim

Seriously, does it really matter if he is?


Because so far, I've heard two good things about him. First off, he stands for "Hope" and "the future". Of course, unless you go deep into his website, you'll never find out what his "hope and "future" are, it doesn't really mean anything.

You mean you can't find stuff like this? Under the giant header on his site that says "issues"?


(his hope is making it so that politics are clean and completely perfect...which is pretty oxymoronic considering the amount of unethical politics he got into in order to become a senator...)

You have yet to provide any proof, or even speculation about this, other than just saying it.


Notice how neither of the good things about him actually apply to leadership?

Stuff like good policies, charisma, and ethics?


Tell me everyone, how on earth is this guy beating Hilary?

Because everything you just said is meaningless and misinformed.



(Last edited by Sussoloc Ythgim Eht on 02-26-08 12:56 AM)
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 1700 days
Last activity: 551 days
Posted on 02-26-08 12:21 AM Link | Quote
Elaborating a little on one of FX's points, because it's one I personally feel rather strongly about, and one he only commented about in passing.

Originally posted by Rakluv

And then...he has on many, many occaisons, decided that holding his hand over his heart during the national anthem was unneccesarry. He doesn't actually need to show that he LIKES America to become president, does he?

Oh yeah, and finally, you know that United States flag pen that all of the senators wear? He doesn't have it! He completely ignores it.
I do believe I've seen McCain without it as well.

Getting to my point however, I'm sick of this obsession with symbolism. If you genuinely support anything, show it through your actions, not with effortless and equally worthless displays of publicly accepted symbols.

If you'll allow me to stray from the topic for a moment, I said something very similar in a previous topic about supporting our troops; that little yellow ribbon so many people rely on to show their support comes disturbingly close to offending me. Not because I don't support the troops (which I do) or the war (which I don't), but because my family actually did something to support them when we could afford to. When my stepfather was in Afghanistan, we sent things to him and the other soldiers on the base. That is supporting the troops. Displaying an utterly useless ribbon or ribbon bumper sticker is not support, what it is can be best described as a throwaway gesture that in the grand scheme of things means absolutely nothing. In fact, I strongly suspect that many of the people displaying those ribbons are doing so for selfish reasons - to ease their own conscience without having to make any personal sacrifices.


On another note, in the same post:

Originally posted by Rakluv
Sure, he dismisses it as "fear mongering", but he has yet to tell us why he was hidng the picture?


You just answered your own question, while asking your own question.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5Next newer thread | Next older thread
Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Who Do You Support? |



xeogaming.org

AcmlmBoard 1.92++ r4 Baseline
?2000-2013 Acmlm, Emuz, Blades, Xkeeper, DarkSlaya*, Lord Alexandor*
*Unofficial Updates
Page rendered in 0.241 seconds.
0.037