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| User | Post |
| MurdockDeNoss Posts: 24/101 |
I grew up with doing this. Basicly its done in grade school and slowly fades away after that because like all things we learn in grade school in the USA is done this way for repitition. We learn things via repitition so when we grow up in the USA that is the work force. Think about this a moment:
Day starts to a alarm; We get up bathe; Go to School/Work; Spend up to 8 hours a day at School/Work; Come home; Have very little time to ourselves; Feel like shit from School/Work; Bathe and sleep; Day starts again and goes through the above; Now how many of you see the pattern here. I read about this in a Military Book for the Marines a few years back. The man reason for the Pledge of Allegiance was so children wouldn't for get about the Ideals such as Loyalty, Faith and the such. |
| Elara Posts: 2036/9736 |
No, it is the same god. This is the basics of Islamic belief as far as that goes:
They believe that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad were the prophets of Allah (which is their word for God). Each prophet reveled part of His message to his people. Mohammad brought the final piece of God's will to the people, but the Christians and the Jews did not want to hear this message because they did not believe that this was a true prophet (just as the Jews also did not accept Jesus's teachings). Muslims believe that they have the complete message, and thusly view the other two groups as sub-par (but they outright hate Pagans traditionally). But yeah, there goes the whole Allah vs God and the whole Jesus is a prophet thing. |
| geeogree Posts: 81/246 |
technically they don't..... although the differences aren't large in number.... the main difference being that Jesus was just a prophet and not the savior of the world.... and not God in human flesh. |
| 01001000 Posts: 306/944 |
Clockworkz, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Allah mean God, and thus christianity and muslim share the same deity? |
| The Accidental Protege Posts: 674/2641 |
You know what? I don't think that this nation should be united under "God", it should be united under the values of love and peace. Not a deity. Not everyone believes in God. Many people belive in Allah, or Ganesh, or The Goddess, or no deity at all. |
| Elara Posts: 1965/9736 |
Originally posted by HoboConductor This is my favorite thing to point out to people in this argument, especially ones that start saying "it's always been there, it should stay" It's amazing how fast they shut up when you point that out. My mom tried to continue, saying that she remembered it always being there (my mom was 11 in 1950); but even she admitted defeat there when I backed it up with documented evidence. |
| avatar of law Posts: 255/486 |
and might i add, i've already put up the original pledge in my previous post...
ppl just dont read these days -.-' |
| 01001000 Posts: 300/944 |
rocker, "Under God" was added in the 50's when we were fighting the godless communistic Russia, that is the only reason. |
| renewed_soul_rocker Posts: 29/30 |
I would say it should stay not because if the religous stuff but because its a symbol of our American heritage. And thats the way they wrote it so i think it should stay that way. And if people don't like it when why don't have to say it. |
| Astrophel Posts: 497/2724 |
hah, you wouldn't believe how many times I heard most of your arguments, Vulkar.
The only exception being "Standing should be kept, because this country is of free choice but not without law." Honestly, I think this is the weakest argument I've heard in quite a while, even worse than "You don't have to say it" - of course, you also used that one, which I believe avatar already countered sufficiently. Honestly, what does standing have to do with law? Hmm? And how would removing the request/requirement affect 'law'? |
| Belial Posts: 112/647 |
Well, I never said the pledge in high school unless the teacher noticed I didn't say it. I stood up, in respect for the original founders of the country, but not out of respect for the leaders of it now.
There were two reasons. One, I didn't believe in the god it implied to. Second, why does any one need to pledge their allegiance to a red, white, blue, striped and starred flag? a piece of material? It boggles my mind... |
| Pockets Posts: 403/838 |
I was in ROTC for 2 1/4 years. The class said the pledge every single day. I never once did. I stood out of common courtesy though I have no respect at all for it or this country.
This country is largely filled with ignorant biggots. I'm a biggot in some respects. Everyone is whether they think so or not. Some people take it to extremes that are just stupid. I stopped reciting the pledge in kindergarten I haven't said it once since then. |
| Van Rhanell Posts: 212/337 |
It should stay, in its entirety, but people don't have to say it if they really don't want to. Most people I've seen against this are the younger groups who think they're making a change that would help them but really are just trying to find something else to rebel against. Standing should be kept, because this country is of free choice but not without law. It's not said at the high school I go to, and I wish it was because the pledge, no matter what it means, is more pleasing to listen to than the people around me talking of parties and sports and drug deals. |
| Elara Posts: 1927/9736 |
I don't remember when I quit saying the pledge, sometime around 7th grade I think. I notice that a lot of people stop saying it around that time, most likely because that is when we start the beginnings of thinking for ourselves... usually.
I wasn't forced to say the pledge, of course the one reason I gave when asked was "religious reasons". However, I was forced to stand for it. In 10th grade I had a teacher that gave us the option of not standing if we didn't want to. Two people stood for the pledge usually. I didn't want to stand for the pledge, because standing is a sign of respect and especially at that time I had no respect for this country because everything that the pledge, that the flag itself stands for, is a lie. We don't have the freedoms that we supposedly do. In 9th grade I had been horribly tormented for my religion and that left me very bitter, in 10th grade I watched my gay friends being harassed and denied their equal rights (that was the year the gay marriage proposition was on the California ballot and lost, thus banning gay marraige). Our first amendment right to freedom of religion is more like "freedom of religion, as long as it's Christian", and the "unalienable rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" that Jefferson spoke of in the Declaration of Independance seem to be selectively given. If America was the nation that the founders had envisioned, then I would stand and say the pledge happily, but it's not. Thusly I didn't stand. However, in 11th grade I had a different teacher for 3rd period (me and Zabuza went to the same high school, just so you know). He was a cool guy and all, but when I didn't stand for the pledge he got pissed off at me and sent me to the office. I was forced to sign a contract saying that I would stand for the pledge or I would be expelled. Apparently it is a law that you have to stand for it no matter what. My not standing was a form of civil disobediance, and that is a constitutional right that we supposedly have... but nope, not allowed to do it. I acutally lost the last bits of respect for the country then. |
| 01001000 Posts: 297/944 |
I haven't pledged allegiance to any flag since 6th or 7th grade. Got tired of saying it, didn't have faith in our government or even why I should I say it. All I do is stand, no hand over heart crap. I'm just gonna sit down for now on, see if my teachers during the second period are going to yell at me for not doing so. |
| avatar of law Posts: 253/486 |
...and here comes me
to answer zabuza's comments about why we dont say it anymore in college... well, that's an easy ass answer! ONE: K-12 students tend to go to public schools, ie free... and ran by our government. TWO: college and up, are not public schools. you or someone pays for it. since you or someone pays for it, you are not forced to do anything. regarding why "under GOD" should be removed: ONE: K-12 students are still kids who attend a public school. this is what you call a "captive audience." Definition captive audience noun [C] a group of people who listen to or watch someone or something because they can not leave. This is also why your teachers arent "supposed" to tell you if they're a demo, or repub... or their opinions about a certain topic. keep in mind, i said supposed to. so, to recap... kids in public schools who are told to recite it in a sense has no choice in the matter. certain schools/teachers dont care if you say it or not. but that's on a case by case situation depending on those ppl. in theory, you are supposed to say it. any "good" student will go along with it, since it's a rule, and they dont wanna get in trouble and whatnot. that is the full sense of a captive audience. this is the #1 reason it should be taken out. TWO: "under God" gee... i wonder why it's God, and not god. so no, anyone's comments about it just saying god, which refers to any god, is WRONG! because it's a captial G, it automatically refers to the christian's God. So STFU, if anyone indeed use that arguement. THREE: my personal experience. i'm not a christian or religious for that matter. but when i was a kid, i knew for sure i wasnt a christian, being asian and all that. so i'd always dread it when the under God part came around during the pledge. i always felt dirty or wrong when i said it. i thought it was just me, but now i'm sure there's millions out there who feels the same. other stuff... the original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ] "to my flag", which means that it's a pledge for your own state, not united states. it was changed later on. the original pledge was written some few decades after the civil war. anyways, all in all... if you go to a private school, you should follow its rules and whatnot. but if you go to PUBLIC school, which i'm sure a lot of us did, you should not have to say under God, under the captive audience rule. and because it is seperation between church and state... being that public schools fall under the state, under God has no place there. i'd like to see someone counter my argument... |
| Stitch Posts: 619/2785 |
Valid points. There are many things that draw away from education, and it does become moot to teach kids something that they are probably not ever going to begin to comprehend until late high school, maybe early junior high, or possibly even college/university. When it is added up, that is ten hours of non-productivity that could be better allocated. I mean, our education is sub-par to all other countries (with exception to third-world and other lacking countries) churning out people whom believe that the entire world is high school (even though it is).
We need a better diversified learning environment. While it is all "well and good" to teach our children a little loyalty and pride for their country, they should be learning a little more from our educational system so that they can back that pride with something substantial. I would like my kids to be multilingual, highly intelligent, undaunted by science and math, well-nurtured, independent, unbrainwashed self-thinkers. Thus far, we've only produced--maybe--2 to 5% of our total student population nationwide. This country likes to brainwash. And, they like to start young. |
| Astrophel Posts: 491/2724 |
I think it's more accurate to say you didn't feel like you owed me an answer because I disagreed with you, but I'll elaborate on my points. I at least have the decency to not ignore my opponent in a debate because I disagree with his wording.
"Otherwise productive": I find that it's more productive to spend those few minutes getting work and learning done than repeating some pledge over and over again. I mean, hey, maybe I'm the only one that would rather spend those 5-10 hours a year doing something, but I honestly doubt it. "Meaningless pledge": Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but... well, no, not really, because to me it is meaningless. And I don't see where my opinion would affect whether or not you should reply - unless, of course, you either didn't agree with me and didfn't want to bother, or felt that replying was 'beneath you' in some way. "brainwashed full-of-shit patriots": Slight exaggeration in my wording, but I'm sure you know the people I'm referring to. The ones who didn't give a damn about the country before it became trendy. As for the pledge, aside from my practical reasons for wanting it removed, the "under God" part is actually an important part of it. How would a Christian feel if it said "One Nation That Knows God Doesn't Exist"? I'm not saying that it's possible to know either way, but what if it SAID that? You'd be pissed, right? I thought so, so those of us complaining about its present wording aren't really that far "out there". I would ideally rather see it gone completely, though; the words don't even MEAN anything to little children unless someone explains them (more otherwise-prodcutive time spent on this pledge) and at that young age they still respond to the coercion, therefore droning out words that they don't understand. Later on, the classes need to cram more stuff in because of those damn SOL tests (rant for another topic), and that 10 hours each year could go to something else. |
| geeogree Posts: 74/246 |
Zabuza: well, the parts I didn't like were: "otherwise productive", "meaningless pledge", "brainwashed full-of-shit patriots".
that's why I didn't feel I owed him an answer |
| Lord Vulkas Mormonus Posts: 571/4541 |
Honestly, I can see both sides of this idea. I believe that if you are supposed to, then do it. It disrespects your country not to.
However, the actual pledging shouldn't be done after the pledge is memorized. If that part is canceled then you can spend a huge 2 minutes doing more school. But then if we calculate that 2 minutes for 303 days, then that is actually about 10 hours students could be studying. People can learn a lot in 10 hours. So, while it does show your support to the goverment, it also does get annoying and waste time. I would say it, but I wouldn't have a huge outburst were it deleted. |
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