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|Lord Vulkas Mormonus
|Alright, I think taht that's enough of that topic. I talked to True, and she said she was going to delete her post, so that the conflict would be completely over, but apparently she never got around to it.
That means I'm in moderator mode, which I think we all know is rare when I'm actually posting, instead of PMing or IMing.
So, I'll just say that this thread has gotten a little heated on both (all three) sides, and that I'm sure nobody here actually harbors bad feelings towards anyone else, and that if they did act in a way that seemed overly aggressive or hostile, then it was not intentional, or was only done in the heat of the moment, not to be repeated.
The above paragraph was just one really long sentence.
And yeah, from what I've heard, Xeios and Kaijin are resolving their difficulties via PM. Let's keep things happy, people.
So, less arguing about arguing and more productive discussion on improvements for the rules.
And for the record, Cairoi did none of this "holier than thou" stuff, xD. He's only posted one line sicne Kaijin even came in, and that was a reply directed towards me.
Originally posted by "Dictionary.com"
Originally posted by Xeios
Doesn't sound self-righteous to me. And I couldn't care less about one person's happiness over the other. I proved my point, and spoke with Kaijin through PMs about my intentions and reasons for bringing up old posts.
I responded to a hostile post from Kaijin with hostility, when he responded with more hostility, I turned the other cheek.
Let's not have another Leviathan thing going on here. I have no right to talk about it because I suck and I know I suck. But really... I don't want another thing like "The Turks" going on here.
Kaijin... Yeah some of the rules are off, but that's the thing about simbattling. you can change them if the other person is in agreement. Just explain it to make sense.
Cairoi and Xeios. Simbattling was revived, but your holier than thou methods suck for explaining. You know the methods of being polite to those who have already taken offense to stuffs.
I'm not at all happy with the fact that you used rather well... old posts. We all are growing up and we're learning more about writing. (Some of us slower than others... ) But so really... Dark matter... that sounds like something I posted...
Come on guys grow up... This is just posting fights about characters. This isn't some UFC match that has like a title worth like millions of dollars.
|Lord Vulkas Mormonus
|On the martial arts thing...
I will agree that these fights could easily be just one-liners. They can be short and concise. However, having actually been in martial arts, I've actually learned that there is a LOT of things going on in a proper fight. Foot placement, momentum, balance, the position and angle of the strike, etc. Because of this, then I actually try to move in to a sword fight with my opponent, just because a single bad swing can murder you.
The examples you mention, Kaijin, are honestly written so dryly that I can see why it would be boring. However, a good simbattle, again, is just a writing exercise. Insert your character, try to put a little suspense in your posts. I'm honestly very proud of my most recent fight with Cairoi, just because of how much more we both write it like a story, than a competition.
(Apologies to Cairoi for not posting, working two jobs has caused me to stop writing posts that can take over an hour to properly prepare for and write)
But yeah, that's th sort of direction I hope to move in. Focusing lss on the killing Saiyin level 500, and more on the subtle traps and creative exercises that brought me into simbattling in the first place.
|I understand that side just fine, it just seems to rub me the wrong with with the quantity to each post, as well as quality. Martial Arts Hand-to-Hand just dosn't seem to have the same feel.
In a hand to hand fight, multiple things are flying, if you know what your doing. Also, it's all about grappling that causes problems as well, since in a hand to hand, it's not going to end up the same (usually dosn't) as it would a melee match. Hand to Hand usually ended up with someone's arm getting caught, and someone calling the Auto Hitting rule, and that would end up with most problems.
People from my old generation avoided pretty much every auto hit rule we could think of. Most Melee matches consisted of a quick attacks, one strong hit, either hit, deflect, or miss, and that's what leaves it open for a crafty, detailed assault of a thrust, following a secondary effect, or a spell of some sorts.
I don't know, hand to hand just never seemed to flow well for details.
Again, personal Opinion.
|Firstly, I was comically responding to an attack, it was not hostile.
I'm not saying hand-to-hand is the only way to go, but you can make similar comparisons to any/all sword fighting that occurred in the old style of rules. Close quarters builds intensity, and if intensity is what you're going for there are many ways to do that. But relentless magical assaults from a decent range let the opponent breathe, even if the assaults get progressively more ridiculous. Personally, I find coming up with magic effects to be limitless, which is why limiting an ability and making it useful is a greater test of skill.
Sure, there is more room for creativity with spell-based assaults, but knowing how to mix multiple styles together is really creative. For instance:
Quickly, the red man leaned back, narrowly dodging the backhand which swept over his chest as he narrowly avoided the blow. The red man then leaned forward for an impressive punch, a hay-maker to the jaw, right hand coursing with electricity.
The blue man ducked to the side, and brought a fist full of stone at the red man's kidneys. Attempting to cause some incredible pain for his foe.
Red winced as he was struck, some shrapnel from the rock drawing blood. He attempted a dolphin kick, aiming his foot for his opponent's jaw, and hoping to gain some distance.
Blue was struck, and was knocked off his feet for a moment. He quickly flipped to his feet, and before his foe could land, he sent an earthen shockwave at him, hoping to catch his foe off guard.
Same basic steps, but with magic mixed in. One lined assaults, but they could achieve a goal. No where does it say in Cairoi's rules, that if you use magic heavily you'll get banned. There is plenty of room for magical assaults, and the magical assaults need to be clever to work, but a lot of us were inspired by the Weapon Master's tournament. To think that two people could battle in a close proximity, relying only upon the skill of their pen to handle their opponents took off. The only thing that is supposed to be limited, is the extensiveness of actions taken.
As I said before, clever ideas for magic will win, we're not talking about a fight between two skilled swordsmen, we're talking about a fight between two supernatural beings. Beings, with powers beyond the human scope. But, we're talking about Two beings, and disrespecting the opponent for the sake of being 'over-the-top' and 'challenging,' are situations we don't want to happen. Because it is in those situations, that the line between God-modding and legitimacy blurs.
|That was a cute post Xeios, thank you for your attempt to psycho analyze my mentality. It was acctually non hostle up untill the second end of your post.
My old style was flawed, and I never once admitted that it wasn't. Nor am I "scared" but thank you for attempting to look supirior to someone whos been at this almost a decade longer then you. Sounds like you've really moved up in this world, bud. I'm really glad to see you doing so well for yourself.
Hand to Hand fighting in the old Sim realm was never possible. Not because it was so boring, but because the way the fights went, 3 pages worth of posts would cover a 15 second martial arts fight.
An example of what I'm refering to:
Quickly, the red man leaned back, narrowly dodging the backhand that swept gracefully over his chest as he narrowly avoided the blow. Following the blow, the red man used the momentum to brush his foot forward, in an unbalanced attempt to slam a quick kick into the blue man's side
The blue man felt the quick hit as he was presed away, and skittered into the ground. Using his strength he had left, he pressed up and turned, trying to rebalance and charge his apponent before his balanced regained
The red man hit the floor, and rolled backwards, into a flip, launching his own feet into the air, to cause him to land up right
The blue man got in close and brought his right hand back, and launched forward a dextiled thrust in a knuckled frenzy
The red man brought his left hand up and deflected the blow, while bring his right hand up into an uppercut twoard the blue man's stomache
The blue man bround his left hand down, stopping the blow entirely before backing up
This is why it wasn't working. Hand to Hand consisted of mostly one lined assaults, that really didn't do much. In the past, we required detail and content. Not many people even had the patients to reply to something like that, let alone reply with something so small and skimpy. Sure it could be fun for you guys, but that style of SIM is not the way I'll fight. Spell based assaults leave more room for creativity, hand to hand is just too simple.
My personal opinion.
|I'm not trying to run you into the ground. And I wasn't flaming at all. What I did was point out flaws, and I never said I had none as well. You are too afraid to admit that sim-battling in the past was broken. I'm able to admit that. I'm also able to admit that there were many times when I god-modded as well. We all drank the kool-aid of "I can move as fast as the speed of light whenever I want to." Or, "This attack could destroy the sun." What you refuse to listen to, is that Sim-Battling has changed, and it has done so substantially. I don't want to be the board that attracts people the likes of Leviathan, or all other Shin-Ra people that came here ages ago.
I'm glad your older style has changed significantly, because your older style, as well as all of ours, was flawed. But, we're also not using 'mild' magic, we're using magic to do things like no other, we just have limitations. In our current sim-battle universe, there are no characters who can destroy the earth. Not with a single attack, not with an entire slew of attacks. And I would argue, having a rule of "Don't go over the top," as a general basis adds to the strategy that a fighter needs.
If everyone can do something within extended reason, different fighting styles are opened up.
How many characters back in the day would fight hand-to-hand? None, know why? Because everyone had indestructible swords that could cut through anything. How many characters needed to block things which were 'unavoidable' or unleashed in a millisecond, or had absurd areas of effect? Too many. I understand you're sensitive about the changes, because you're scared of change, you'd like the board to be exactly the same as when you left it. But it's moved on, we've moved on.
Think about it this way: If you shouldn't go over the top, and a character is about to fire a bullet at you, how do you avoid it? You could notice the general direction of the aim, and dodge preemptively. You could attempt to deflect it downward with some armor you're wearing(if it's heavy enough). You could use some energy to melt the bullet from far away. And many more...
Now before, dodging a bullet was nothing, people cut bullets in half, they didn't even have to think. "Oh I hear the bullet fire, then I turn it to dust because I can." Was the old way of thinking. Therefore, since guns were practically useless(because everyone could move faster than them, and everyone could see them coming from a mile away) an entire fighting style was eliminated.
Sure, I could have a battle with someone, and be absurd and unfair, expecting him to be absurd and unfair too. But then there are too many arguments. I remember back-and-forth arguments about whether or not a move was valid, and the arguments always ended with someone saying "I guess," and either responding to the post, or fixing it. Gone are those days. Points can actually be argued now. Like: reasonably speaking, you shouldn't be able to block something magically, AND be able to throw a light-speed, insta-kill blast at your enemy in the same round.
Nice backhanded insult about the, "difficulties with imagination," comment, smooth. Hello pot, have you met kettle.
|Wow, that was a fantastic flame post, there Xeios. Thank you for trying to run me into the ground after all of these years of me having a life, and not even sititng there to see what I'm capable of after all this time.
(Side note: My rules were a revised variant that Sparda and I worked on. But thanks for asking)
But if you really want to dig up 4+ year old posts, then I'm sure we still have countless of your rule breaking variants scattered all over the place. Besides, you were one of those many whom put me in the authoritive place of the sim rules. Or did you forget as soon as I left to get a life? No matter.
Anyway, moving on from that:
My older style has been tweaked significatly since I've last had any fun fights here. Thoes who want to keep it mellow, then by all means, go for it. I see no problems with mild magic (if at all) with quick 2 page fights.
However, the fights I'm use to are diffrent then that, what you guys consider God Modding, when refering to my fights (which is funny, really) I consider pushing the limit, and pressing your ability to be imaginative.
I prepously make my fights that large, and crazy, because it forces you to think. There hasn't been a single time I assaulted someone and there wasn't a way out of it. Sure, a hell of a lot of my posts made people wonder how you are suppose to go about it, but that was the point. If an attack is an easily dodged attack, I never thought it was worthy to be put in something that I enjoyed.
My fights where basically puzzle fights. And yes, I recognize, and understand, that thoes whom have difficulties with imagination will immediatly call it god modding, but so be it.
Moving on from that thought, Cairoi, I have an Idea that I'd like to share with you. I thought of it about half a year ago, but never had the real free time to come back and post it back on my home board, so here it is:
From what I've seen, there is ALWAYS someone who hates the idea of sim fights that have set rules, they are always the ideals of trouble, and the core spawn of issues. Lets butt heads together sometime and come up with an interesting post. PM me later, and I'll fill you in on the idea, alright? I think you'll like it, acctually.
For a note for any future posters that wish to reply to this: Unless you have the maturity to back up your words, please, follow the rules, and avoid needless insutling posts. I've been gone a long time, and it dissapoints me to see some individuals still have yet to get their acts together after around 10 years of me being around.
|First of all: Welcome back Kaijin...
And here comes the massive post of criticism:
Originally posted by http://www.xeogaming.org/thread.php?id=5545
Definition: God Mod, an unavoidable attack, unless someone were to God Mod themselves, because who can move fifty feet in any one direction by the time "Suddenly" happens. The attack is technically a summon. The attack was constructed from thin air, without any tell-tale signs of charging it, or it happening before the instant it happened. Also, earlier in that post, you had unleashed a defense, and another attack.
Originally posted by http://www.xeogaming.org/thread.php?id=6106
You threw yourself, Desroth, and Sparda into Titan division, and everyone else into divisions with no real relation to skill or thought. I mean, you didn't even run a tournament, you just put inactive players in the 'leader' positions, and assumed that you would be able to sit on your high horse forever.
Also, see some of the posts in the thread I'm quoting next, apparently "Titan division" means "Can't string a coherent sentence together division."
Originally posted by http://www.xeogaming.org/thread.php?id=8337
Originally posted by http://www.xeogaming.org/thread.php?id=9074
Definition: God Mod. One second, 'countless' slasses(lol) covering an incredibly large area, and having no basis on even semi-reality. The only reality this could exist in would be an episode of Dragon Ball Z, and that's even pushing it, because the super-god-powered-Saiyans couldn't even punch something so many times in one second, that a relatively intelligent person couldn't count as high as that number.
Originally posted by That same fight!
Definition: God Mod. You mean to tell me you carved a hole through an explosion with a sword.
Originally posted by http://www.xeogaming.org/thread.php?id=3102
I'm not going to waste my time quoting all the bullshit god mod attacks from this fight, particularly because I'll be posting this for the next three months. But Instant death as an effect = God Mod. Hate to say it. Because if you keep throwing incredible 'instant death' effect abilities, you can bitch when your opponent keeps dodging/blocking them.
In short, you are no authority on any sort of rules.
You are no authority on any sort of rules.
You left this board ages ago, the Sim-Battle community stagnated(not your fault), and Cairoi revived it with input from myself by making the rules more coherent, and clear.
We all used to God-Mod, can't really fault us for that because you, yes you, and Sparda were our 'role models.' And the two of you let us down as a community, and as people we thought we could respect.
I can't really speak for anyone else, but Sim-Battling is fun again, and you don't have a part in this world with your set-in-stone-old-school ways of thinking.
Edit: Just to be an asshole, They were never your rules, you copy-pasted Sparda's rules.
Also, this hasn't been your board for quite some time.
Originally posted by Lord Vulkymort
If you read the rules, they basically say: "If you find any of these rules restricting, run changing them by your opponent so you have fair playing ground."
|A) I agree with Vulkar.
B) So long as you state in the simbattle somewhere that it is agreed between two opponents that the rules are scrapped *shrugs*. I think that sounds fine.
Originally posted by Kaijin
I don't really know you, but I certainly wouldn't like to offend you right off the bat.
While watching simbattle is, indeed, fun and exciting, others may not care to read another's battle. Which is where description comes in. If someone can't describe their arsenal of weapons, then they shouldn't exist. At least provide in your character profile what weapons you have. Otherwise, you can conjure up anything at will (which sounds like cheating, to me).
For instance, my character, Phoenix, can summon his sword from Holy Fire. However, I have that weapon listed in my profile. I'm not just going to summon a Phoenix Super-Explosion Rocket Launcher from nowhere. I consider that unfair, and honestly, uncreative. Characters now-a-days are limited, as Vulkar said. There is absolutely no point in fighting someone that you can learn nothing from. If your characters do nothing but counter everything and summon whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want to, nothing will be learnt by either writer.
As for the human bit, very true. But human or not, everything runs out of energy eventually. How fast a character is exhaust depends on how much magic they use and how strong it is. If no one ever got exhausted, a fight would literally go on forever.
This is just my opinion on things. I like the way simbattling is. If someone wants to fight without the rules, I would love to. Otherwise, I see no point in arguing them.
|Lord Vulkas Mormonus
|Well, yeah, its already sort of like that. Having a standard set of rules, but if people want to play differently, I'd be shocked if Cairoi cared.|
|I'm still of the opinion that particular rules and types of fights should be between the people simbattling, though some fair general rules are always welcome to point at if people get in a disagreement. They honestly shouldn't be there for any other reason.|
|Lord Vulkas Mormonus
|Honestly Kaijin, simbattling is evolving far past what it once was, and honestly, I like this new direction.
I know I've said it to plenty of people befre through PMs, but I don't think I've yet posted it, so I guess now is the time.
Simbattling, in my view, is nothing more than a writing exercise. A way for you to increase you knowledge of your character, new situations, how to react, etc. I don't view it as a competition anymore, like I used to.
The old simbattle rules were all about competition, and that's it. As a result, then vastly overpowered characters like Sparda dominated the field, instead of well written evenly-powered characters like we're trying to push towards right now.
The problem with overpowered characters, like, no offense intended, yours, is that they act as a disservice towards both players. You, as an invincible person, don't need to push yourself to keep the upper hand. All you do is rely on superpowered attacks that murder someone in a single attack. How do you grow as a writer doing that?
It also does your competition a disservice, because in order to win, they have to put their own character in steroids. Superpower them in order to survive your insanity. Yeah, it'll cause them to write outside of their comfort zone, but it wouldn't allow them to grow in the direction they want.
So why doesn't everyone just go with superpowered characters, you ask? Well, the answer here, for me, is easy. If you want to write a story, how much suspense do you have if your main character is superman? A character that is invincible against bullets, blades, heat, energy, or, indeed, almost anything?
You get absolutely none, because the main character will destroy all of his opponents. Its boring, and its something that I would stop reading long before the finale.
And this goes back to what simbattling is about, learning to better write suspense and action. Putting yourself in new mindsets with fights, giving yourself more ideas for a suspenseful battle. Obviously then writing stories is different from writing simbattles, but the concepts and attacks are still the same, and you can still learn quite a bit.
tldr; Old battles were competitions, now they're writing exercises. We like weak characters, xD.
|Let me start this off with saying, thank you Cairoi, for insulting my "flawed rules" >.>
While I understand I made thoes rules Four Year Ago it doesn't hurt to atleast attempt to let me know your going to scrap mine entirely. I do still check the board on occasion, ya know.
So far, your Rules you have set up are somewhat tweaking. I do hope your not done putting rules up, for it feels WAY too linear, and only half finished. That, and the "No Reality Changing" bothers me. I understand the basis of it, but I don't like part of it. For example: My character doesn't carry his weapons. He phases them in because they are mystical gear and are a part of him. And I'm sure as hell not going to describe that I may, or may not have a gun hiding under my coat everytime I start a roleplay.
Part of the magic that happens in the Sim Arena is WATCHING fights. If you don't watch how people fight, and don't take notes, it's not my problem if you get nailed by a secret weapon I used in a previous fight.
It's all a learning curve.
Also, I wish to point this out, before anyone gets too ahead of themselves with Exaustion rules:
Not everyone plays as Humans. Chew on that factor for a bit, and come back to me. I'd rather leave this up for debate.
(Cairoi, I say this, because your rules sound dangeriously close to becomming the tight nit "I own your character" rules an old forum use to have, whom I shall not name. I'll not see that happen on my board.)
|I'm fairly certain I was the only non-god modder of old times. Honestly, the amount of times my characters were left helpless to stupid attacks that would require me to bring up random shields to defend against the power of several nuclear bombs... Gah.
It's the problem with the way this whole battle system works. It allows a lot of freedom, without forcing weaknesses based on the character's strengths. Such as magical exhaustion, I may have been one of the few RPers here with characters who did get tired by constant use of abilities (Sanigen for example, his final attack, Kajaei Ultimaei, gave him around five posts of vastly heightened power, before leaving him essentially defenseless where he would have to recharge. Yet even then that hasn't helped since the opponents in those battles generally dodge and defend his highly increased attacks and powers...) and it certainly annoyed me when my characters would suffer from this without the opponent feeling any strain having just created a mass of energy equivalent to several nuclear bombs etc.
I understand external sources of magic being much more energy efficient for the fighter, but in that respect I would expect such a character being ONLY skilled in such abilities, and likely not have much skill in physical fighting. Yet most characters do. So they can utilise entire worlds worth of energy without losing their physical skills and then win by weakening the opponent until they can barely lift a sword. Where as someone with natural, internal controls of energy are likely to require less time devoted to practising such abilities, and therefore can train more in physical, weapon-based combat. Also, those with internal sources of energy are more likely to be naturally resistant to external forces due to them needing to control them without causing self harm.
EDIT: Also, magical exhaustion could still occur quite badly in someone using an external source, as the external energy is channeled through the mind of the user then projected via the body, in a very similar way to those who have natural, internal sources, who suffer both those, and the fact they would have such a limited source of their energy, and would have to every now and then allow their natural reserves to regenerate.
|There is another problem with gauging magical exhaustion: There's no way to determine, for a fact at least, how much energy it would take to sustain any and all of these abilities. Strictly speaking, using any magic should force an insurmountable strain on the human body. Now, depending on the 'origin' of the magical power, and whether it comes from within you, or if you are merely a conduit for a greater power, the amount of strain would totally be different.
Take Cairoi for example:
Theoretically, while Cairoi may be in control of the earth, he is only impressing his will upon an outside force.(The Earth, essentially utilizing the 'limitless' power of the Earth god Gaia) This should only cause a decrease in performance after incredibly long battles, as he is merely controlling things by will, and not necessarily any force from within himself.
Cairoi then, could be weakened by external forces, as well as his own mental aptitude. For instance, were Gaia to feel as though Cairoi was not being as devout as he should be, he could neglect to devote as much energy to Cairoi.
(These are all just thoughts tossed around in my head, mind you, nothing set in stone, just giving examples.)
Now, take Xeios (in his current form, not the shitty OP-borderline-god-mod version he was before, like all other sim-battlers of their time):
Xeios utilizes defensive magic to block and reflect attacks, this magic comes from magical runes which have been placed upon his body. Most of these runes are located upon his hands, for easy access, but covered under the bandages to add mystique, as well as protect his hands. Now, Xeios is using the power of the runes to do two things with his combat style: defend himself from harm, and absorb energy that his foe throws at him.
So, Xeios should weaken more rapidly than fighters like Cairoi, as he is directly using power within himself, but he is able to keep at an equivalent level with his foes by drawing strength from their attacks.
|Exactly. Magical exhaustion is just an aspect of fair play. Even the greatest warriors have limits, and within simbattling, it's important to understand that a massive taxing of magical energy has an effect similar to taxing your body physically.
Magical exhaustion isn't a set in stone rule, but it's one of those etiquette aspects of simbattling that becomes godmodding if ignored.
|Okay, this is something that I just talked to Vince about. I want to make sure I'm correct.
It seems to be more of an accepted rule than a written one, so I would like confirmation. Magical exhaustion. When you use too much magic at once, you're going to be exhausted, right? Like if you punch too much, or use a really strong physical attack, you get exhausted.
I know the limit would be different, but would it still not apply? Such as your battle with Vulkar. Your character was unable to hold up the sand for that long without wearing himself out, because there was a lot of energy required to do so.
|This is a long thread. Click here to view it.|